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jedihobbit
Rated XXX
Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 238
Location: Central Virginia, USA
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 Posted: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 00:02:40 Post Subject: Kermit the Folder Worklog |
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Been a bad summer for me as far as computers are concerned! I'm hoping this will get me off dead center and eventually get me around to finishing DreamCatcher v2.0. In the mean time..............
While not the most original name, I’ve always been a big Jim Henson fan and this unit is slated for pcper’s Folding Frogs!!
When I did the rebuild of a friend’s mATX system that was done for them years ago “re-casing” the components was part of the deal. So I ended up with the original case. At that time it was called a SimpleMax 101 but like a lot of “unique” computer components it no longer exists. Big Bruin did a nice review for the SimpleMax 101 a while back. It will explain the case structure a lot better than I can. If you review it prior to continuing you’ll understand some of the issues I may (will!!) encounter.
Going from………..
 
to...............
So with the case as my primary stating point I’ve decided to attempt to create a “micro-folder system”. Sadly (or typically) this will have to be a clandestine build hidden from the wife. Therefore I will attempt to use “what is in house” for components. This is what I have so far:
Case: SimpleMax 101
PSU: silenX iXtrema Micro 350W (replaces original 200W)
Mobo: Abit NF-AM2 nView
CPU: Opty 1210 (CCB6F 0741MPMW)
HSF: TBD Zalman
Memory: 2 x 1024 - Corsair CMX1024-6400C4 or OCZ OCZ2P800R22GK
GPU: On Board 6150 (for now!)
Audio: On Board
HDD: WD800JD 80GB SATA II
Optical: Sony NEC Optiarc DVD Burner Combo Drive
One of the first “upgrades” I did when I got this wild hair this spring was to sneak a PSU upgrade passed this wife. The original 200W was fine when I was running the Chaintech 7NIF2 / 2500+ Barton but felt I needed more. Because of the space being so limited I jumped on the silenX iXtrema Micro 350W as it is “modular”. Unfortunately not that much space is saved as the cables plug into a secondary module making the PSU actually two components. Also kinda wonder how far down the food chain I’ll have to go for a GPU that won’t kill the system. Kinda wish I had sprang for the 400W as it has 20A vs. 18A for the +12V.
The PSU:
Initial when I started the project I had ordered the 300W version. This introduced me to one of my major complaints about silenX……their packaging sucks the big one!!! As it turns out it was a drop ship from the factory. They just do not “protect” the components all that well. As you will see later the unit itself has a very attractive (to me anyway) “Metallic Titanium” mirror finish. When the unit arrived it looked like some one had played soccer with it! It arrived with multiple scratches / scraps and with several noticeable dents in the case. Contacted their customer service department (why not it was dropped shipped) and got a pleasant surprise……a responds in less than 48 hours. They allowed me to rma the unit and after thought sent them an additional 20 and updated to the 350W.
BTW please excuse the quality of some of the pics as the auto setting on the camera managed to occasionally become off position.
On arrival one ends up with just a plain white box with “Micro 350W” on the out side. Inside you have:
The assortment of cables….. starting from the top:
1. 2 x Molex power cables (2 molex connectors with the usual FDD power connector each)
2. 2 x SATA power cables (2 connectors and the FDD thingy each)
3. 1 x 6-pin GPU power connector (someone dreaming?)
Besides having the plug-in module, the usual power connector, and an interesting 8-pin to 6-pin mobo connector. Here is a better view of the plug-in unit.
For cooling the unit comes with what appears to be two 60mm fans the factory rates at 14dB each. Also you’ll notice the fans and grills use rubber “isolators” to work on noise control……. “Front” and “rear” views.
 
And did I mention the mirror-like finish??????
Choosing the HSF
As the Opty is to be oc’ed, needing a low profile, and being a Z fan boy I’ve narrowed my hsf choice down to three, the CNPS-7500 CU, 8000, or the 8700.
No sure how (eBay anyone?) but I’ve managed to have one of each on hand! From left to right..... 8000, 8700, and 7500.
I guess as far as choice “the bigger the better” would probably be the answer. However need to find which will fit in the case the best. Already know what the CNPS-8000 is capable of as I used when I test bedded another nView-1210 OC’ing Thread. The major caveat however is this was done on an open tech station. Also had some experience with 8700 when I did a friend’s MicroFly build. That only leaves the behemoth of the 7500 to wonder about.
To get a feel for what dermal work may be necessary I mounted a spare dead nView in the case.
Then literally just started sitting the Zalmans in place to see what happens. What you see is the progression from the 8000 to the 7500 for fitting. One of the things that became apparent right from the start is the fact the optical drive needed to go into the secondary mount slot. The 8700 wasn’t shown as it is very close to the 7500.
  
As you can see the 8000 would not require any “hammer, grind, or file to suit” to work. However the 8700 and the 7500 needs a “clearance” cutout so 1. It doesn’t touch the drive rack, and 2. The rack can be removed without removing the HSF. The drive rack needs to slide to rear about 1/8” to ¼” before it can be rotated up and out.
  
Unless someone suggest otherwise this leads me to believe I should go the route of the CNPS-7500 and just hope the mobo can handle its 848g weight!!
Well back to the real stuff (honey dos) and look at how the PSU fit in later!!
Looking at PSU Fit
Well now on to see how the PSU physically works with the case. Mounted and one of the first things that showed up is the fact the mobo power cables “almost didn’t make it’!! If the 6-pin cable hadn’t of been a “two parter” it would have not reached. Also to reach it has to go across the SATA ports on the board. This could prove to be interesting when I start setting up that cabling later. The primary cable makes it but could pose a problem as it wants to “touch” the power/rest header.
Initially I wanted to place the modular block on the bottom so as not to block any of the factory cooling holes.
However this may not happen without some more moding! It seems when the drive cage is mounted and you’re trying to close it, it drags on the edge of the block.
Turns out it is a rivet head on the bottom of the cage. Guess I could drill it out and try for a smaller rivet or actually move where it is riveted. The other option is to place the block on the case side and block a few holes.
 
Know what is easiest, but just not sure I want to go that way!
Back to the honey dos and then a long look at some case cooling issues…………..
Case Cooling
The really big issue is how to improve case cooling as it pretty much sucks! Stock cooling originally was provided by two thin 60mm fans similar to what is used on some HDD coolers. Supposedly one in and one out, but as you can see by this rear view it would seem they would “fight” each other!!
From the get go the stamped grills will go and I’m replacing the stock fans with more noisy Evercool aluminum 60mm x 25mm Case Fans. Again these are from the parts box, therefore paid for, and no one said the folder would be silent!!
Also I’m looking at how to add maybe a 120mm intake fan, but space is hard to find. In the first picture I taped off the available space for a fan. Everywhere else for all intents and purposes the internal components “touch” the side. Up top center is the approximate center of the hsf fan.
For a top fan I would be limited to a 92mm as the mobo offset will hit anything else and then it would need to be 20mm or less thick and have to be most likely offset. As the last pic shows a 120mm is as wide as the case!
  
Well this is all the pre-engineering I’ve had time for and any input would be greatly appreciated! If I have the time this week end I hope to may set the mobo/cpu/hsf/mem assemble up on my tech station and see what I can do on the OC side.
Oh, by the way if I were to add a low profile GPU it would run right above the point where the front tape does the dog leg………for what it is worth!
Speaking of GPU
On a side note I’ve been wondering if I could slip a decent folding GPU into the already cramped interior. Also the biggest concern initially was what the 350W psu could power and wondered if any of the 8400 – 8600s would work with the 18A and fold at a reasonable rate..
As it turns out there is a more important consideration………….size!
Tossed in an old 9700 without its hsf to see if height would be an issue. Nope, looks like length is it!! By moving the optical drive to the lower bay I pretty much doomed having a stand alone GPU. The caps and power connector on the old 9700 smack right into the drive. Also the card itself almost touches the frame.
  
Height from the top of the gpu connector to the bottom of the drive is a tight 2 3/8” so even a “low profile” most likely wouldn’t work. Just curious would a low profile card fold worth a snit???? Maybe like the
Galaxy 8500GT? ‘Course it depends where that top cap falls as it is roughly 3 3/16” tall!
Not sure of the height of this one but it looks like the Chaintech 8600GT’s layout might let it squeeze in.
Then again I could possibly “sneak” the $27 with MIR for the 8500GT passed the wife as opposed to the $68ish after MIR for the 8600GT.
Oh well this part is potentially “future” anyway, but should be part of the “engineering”. Again any comments are welcome.
_________________
As of 02/01/11
DreamCatcher AM3 >> (Down Again) >> SG01 Evo, MSI 785GM-E65, PII X4 955(AQ H2O Cooled), XFX GTX285(EK H2O Cooled), Seagate 7200.10 ST380815AS 80GB, 2 x G.S. F3-12800CL7D-2GBPI, MODU82+ EMD525AWT, XP Home SP2
KestrelFlight >> (Under Construction) >> Zalman Z7+, MSI NF980-G65, PII X4 1055T, 2 x Galaxy 580GTXs, Zalman 32GB SSD, WD V'Raptor 300GB, 2 x WD 1 TB Blacks, G.S. F3-16000CL9D-4GBTD, Zalman ZM1000-HP Plus , Win7
Oz1a v2.0 >> XFX MDA72P7509 750a, PI X2 8870BE, 2 x XFX GTS250, WD 250GB, F2-8500CL5D-2GBPK, Tt TR2 600W, XP Pro SP3 |
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Little Bruin
Boo Boo
Joined: 07 Apr 2003
Posts: 667
Location: Pic-A-Nic Basket |
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jedihobbit
Rated XXX
Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 238
Location: Central Virginia, USA
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| Posted: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 23:35:09 Post Subject: |
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In the wee hours of the morning...........
As it turns out GPU folding is out of the question and I will drop the idea........reason? There is only 7-1/2" /191mm + 1/8" between the drive/hdd rack and the rear I/O plate.
Case cooling with be the biggest challenge and has been addressed in the work log. If you could look at what I got and make any suggestions that would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks for all the input - just hope it doesn't turn into a wasted effort! 
But by midday...........
This project just came to a screeching halt due to a substantial amount of stupidity.
Set up all the stuff to test and run on the tech station and managed to apparently corrupt the bios chip. To confirm I "stole" the one out of DreamCatcher and promptly put it in back-a$$-ward – it is toast and hope I haven’t screwed the mobo.   
Got an e-mail into Abit to see what this'll cost me!
_________________
As of 02/01/11
DreamCatcher AM3 >> (Down Again) >> SG01 Evo, MSI 785GM-E65, PII X4 955(AQ H2O Cooled), XFX GTX285(EK H2O Cooled), Seagate 7200.10 ST380815AS 80GB, 2 x G.S. F3-12800CL7D-2GBPI, MODU82+ EMD525AWT, XP Home SP2
KestrelFlight >> (Under Construction) >> Zalman Z7+, MSI NF980-G65, PII X4 1055T, 2 x Galaxy 580GTXs, Zalman 32GB SSD, WD V'Raptor 300GB, 2 x WD 1 TB Blacks, G.S. F3-16000CL9D-4GBTD, Zalman ZM1000-HP Plus , Win7
Oz1a v2.0 >> XFX MDA72P7509 750a, PI X2 8870BE, 2 x XFX GTS250, WD 250GB, F2-8500CL5D-2GBPK, Tt TR2 600W, XP Pro SP3 |
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Doctor Feelgood
Arrrrghh!
Joined: 07 Apr 2003
Posts: 20349
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 12:43:27 Post Subject: |
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Nice!
I remember that little case, even though I didn't review it. I had one just like it (same on the inside, slightly different on the outside).
GPU Folding does seem like it isn't worth the effort, especially since you lose one CPU core for it (does it still work that way?).
We need some Foldin' Bruins around here... Maybe a few big Fozzie Bear systems to support out little team...
http://www.bigbruin.com/item_698
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jedihobbit
Rated XXX
Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 238
Location: Central Virginia, USA
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| Posted: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 17:45:07 Post Subject: |
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| Doctor Feelgood wrote: | We need some Foldin' Bruins around here... Maybe a few big Fozzie Bear systems to support out little team...
http://www.bigbruin.com/item_698 |
Like the idea, lets just see if I survive the wife on this one first! 
_________________
As of 02/01/11
DreamCatcher AM3 >> (Down Again) >> SG01 Evo, MSI 785GM-E65, PII X4 955(AQ H2O Cooled), XFX GTX285(EK H2O Cooled), Seagate 7200.10 ST380815AS 80GB, 2 x G.S. F3-12800CL7D-2GBPI, MODU82+ EMD525AWT, XP Home SP2
KestrelFlight >> (Under Construction) >> Zalman Z7+, MSI NF980-G65, PII X4 1055T, 2 x Galaxy 580GTXs, Zalman 32GB SSD, WD V'Raptor 300GB, 2 x WD 1 TB Blacks, G.S. F3-16000CL9D-4GBTD, Zalman ZM1000-HP Plus , Win7
Oz1a v2.0 >> XFX MDA72P7509 750a, PI X2 8870BE, 2 x XFX GTS250, WD 250GB, F2-8500CL5D-2GBPK, Tt TR2 600W, XP Pro SP3 |
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jedihobbit
Rated XXX
Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 238
Location: Central Virginia, USA
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| Posted: Mon, 03 Nov 2008 00:37:04 Post Subject: |
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Thanks to ud over at pcper, have an order in for two chips from these guys http://www.badflash.com/
Hope they arrive this week and we'll see if I ordered them correctly. This will also give me a chance to see if it really was the bios! :eek:
Gave up on abit as it seems they are getting out of the mobo business...........
While I'm waiting on the chips thought I'd get back on the cooling issue. As a re-hash here is the side view
What we do have is the two 60s in the rear. We all know this isn’t going to do me much good when the 1210 is oc’ed. On an open tech station the nView-1210 that is going into DC was in the 50 – 54C range. If I’m to get close to that I’ll need more air! One alternative is to try for a 120 on the side. This shows three different placements for one. Please note that the CNPS-7500 is 3” tall with the total case about 5”. That doesn’t include the mobo standoff height either.
  
The high mount covers the hsf, the middle cover the hsf and deletes the handle, the low is close to the psu. If I make both 60s exhaust then maybe the low mount would be best as the cool air comes in low and is pulled up by the 60s.
As mentioned earlier for a bow hole I’ll have to go with a 92mm max because of case width. The cooling vents you see are mirrored on the other side. So I’m very open to suggestions!
BTW I’ve dropped even thinking about adding a GPU.
_________________
As of 02/01/11
DreamCatcher AM3 >> (Down Again) >> SG01 Evo, MSI 785GM-E65, PII X4 955(AQ H2O Cooled), XFX GTX285(EK H2O Cooled), Seagate 7200.10 ST380815AS 80GB, 2 x G.S. F3-12800CL7D-2GBPI, MODU82+ EMD525AWT, XP Home SP2
KestrelFlight >> (Under Construction) >> Zalman Z7+, MSI NF980-G65, PII X4 1055T, 2 x Galaxy 580GTXs, Zalman 32GB SSD, WD V'Raptor 300GB, 2 x WD 1 TB Blacks, G.S. F3-16000CL9D-4GBTD, Zalman ZM1000-HP Plus , Win7
Oz1a v2.0 >> XFX MDA72P7509 750a, PI X2 8870BE, 2 x XFX GTS250, WD 250GB, F2-8500CL5D-2GBPK, Tt TR2 600W, XP Pro SP3 |
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jedihobbit
Rated XXX
Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 238
Location: Central Virginia, USA
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| Posted: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 01:03:45 Post Subject: |
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Okay now that I’ve kinda sorta made up my mind on the cooling issues decided to do some stuff before the boss lady get back from her mom’s Monday.
First off it is “DREMEL TIME!” The first thing to get chopped is the stock stamped fan grills for the rear 60mm fans…………… now you see ‘em………… now you don’t!
 
After that it was time to butcher the drive cage. Needed to make a clearance cut so the HSF wouldn’t touch. As usual I decided to remove more than necessary, but at least this way the cooling holes would allow for less metal to cut. Right off the bat I realized this was a lot different than the last three cases I cut on. They are aluminum and this is steel! Any way got the wild hair to add 6 more “cooling holes” to the HDD side and promptly had issues. Because of my usual rush I didn’t really support the sheet metal so had the drill bit grab, stick, and actually “bend” the sheet metal. So here you have it…….. before, the cut out, and the holes.
  
With a little bit of time decided to start putting stuff in place. One of the first things different from the initial layout was to put the modular cable block under the drive cage. Take a close look and you’ll see it will get real tight if left near the PSU and HDD.
 
The only things not in place right now will be the 2 x 60mm fans and the 120mm on the side. I also haven’t hooked up any of the molex stuff either. So for now will button ‘er up and wait ‘til I have the opportunity to do the 120mm hole.
_________________
As of 02/01/11
DreamCatcher AM3 >> (Down Again) >> SG01 Evo, MSI 785GM-E65, PII X4 955(AQ H2O Cooled), XFX GTX285(EK H2O Cooled), Seagate 7200.10 ST380815AS 80GB, 2 x G.S. F3-12800CL7D-2GBPI, MODU82+ EMD525AWT, XP Home SP2
KestrelFlight >> (Under Construction) >> Zalman Z7+, MSI NF980-G65, PII X4 1055T, 2 x Galaxy 580GTXs, Zalman 32GB SSD, WD V'Raptor 300GB, 2 x WD 1 TB Blacks, G.S. F3-16000CL9D-4GBTD, Zalman ZM1000-HP Plus , Win7
Oz1a v2.0 >> XFX MDA72P7509 750a, PI X2 8870BE, 2 x XFX GTS250, WD 250GB, F2-8500CL5D-2GBPK, Tt TR2 600W, XP Pro SP3 |
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jedihobbit
Rated XXX
Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 238
Location: Central Virginia, USA
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| Posted: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 18:10:17 Post Subject: |
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The WD HDD started giving me grief and couldn’t or wouldn’t be seen while trying to format. Ended up running WD’s diagnostics to find nothing wrong so in desperation I zeroed the drive, sooooo…….
11/19/08 in the wee hours!
Okay after seemingly managed to get the HDD to format (after ordering a new Seagate of course!) decided to unhook it and make up my mind as to which HDD I’ll use. In the reviews it seems most of the users found that the Seagate runs “cool” and the WD I have is a regular toaster.
Now with the HDD issue out of the way temporarily, thought I’d get back to the cooling issue. I’ve again hooked up the Raptor from DreamCatcher as it has all of the testing software on it.
As a side note noticed that the wee PSU has more bling to it than the shinny case…..both fans have blue leds! Apologize as it seems the auto setting on the camera is “playing games” right now!
 
For the initial temp testing I’ve just hooked up the 2 x 60s as I haven’t gotten the hole cut for the 120 yet. There are three setups that I plan to review/test 1.) the original config which has one 60 as intake and one as exhaust, 2.) Both as exhaust in conjunction with the 120 in the side, and 3) totally removed and use their holes as “vents” in conjunction with the 120.
Here you can see the first setup and I have the bottom one intake and the upper (closest to the hsf) as exhaust.
My initial testing will be a 1 hour run of OCCT to get the cores at 99% and see what the temps are. The readings may be a wee bit skewed as I don’t have the heat of the HDD “inside”. With the room at about 18C and using Config 1 for the 2 x 60s the cores are run low to mid 50sC. This is after a little over 30 minutes of running. However for the last 20 minutes of the run I took the side off and ended up with a 4C drop during that time. It seems I will have to add the 120 for sure as when summer gets here and have several ‘puters running room temp will climb!
11/21/08 again in the wee hours!
Alrighty then…………on the way out the driveway going to work UPS met me with the new Seagate HDD from the egg. So as I type this I down loading M$ updates (seems I have a pre-SP2 copy) along with the latest for the 6150 chipset and the audio. Below you have the Seagate on the left with the WD on the right. One of the biggest things I noticed is how “thin” the Seagate is! That should be a plus when it comes to cooling!
  
Well I’ve got to get up early for some DR appointments so will be stopping for now…….snit it seems the “puter is hung up trying to download SP2!! Or does it just take a long time???????
Later
11/23/09
Everything seems to have been loaded and I’ve been playing with the system using OCCT. Again one of the things I’m looking at is the core temps and try for a “final” stable setting.
Ran up to HD this evening with the idea of picking up some metal cutting blades for the jig saw adapter for my dremel. After I got home it was discovered the 2 “U” shaped types I picked up unfortunately has to be the “T” style. So there went the idea of cutting the hole for the 120 ‘til I can exchange them tomorrow.
Now that I have the hdd I decided to see how much “warmer” the cores would be with everything inside. Leaving the 60s as 1 x in & 1 x out I started the 6 hour run of OCCT. Just for S & Gs here is the case front as it is running…….
It appears there is no real temp increase as the cores still run 53 – 56C with the room temp at 18C. Then I had a thought (dangerous things for me!)…… what would happen if I opened the top optical drive door as nothing is mounted there. Low and behold the temps dropped 2 – 3C!! As you can see from the picture, it is straight through.........
  
If I was really “interested”, had the time, and the talent, it would be kinda neat to figure out how to cut away the center of the door and cover the hole with a mesh of some sort.
Guess the BIG question now would be “Is the mid 50s acceptable full load run temps for folding?” That would get me off the hook as far a cutting the hole for the 120.
12/2008 – 04/2009
After much gnashing of teeth managed to get the system to dual boot with XP home and Ubunto 8.04.01 and ran Linux SMP folding without much issue.
As far as cooling was concerned I left it at the 2 x 60mm fans and the 5.25 bay door open. Interestingly enough if the door was to close I could actually feel a “warm spot” on the top of the case above the cpu. However with the door open everything was fine. It was anticipated that the 120 would have to be installed when the VA summer temperatures arrive, but that didn’t happen………..
Okay this is done and you can stick it with a fork!! Head on over to Kermit v2.0 to see where Kermit went and you can check out DreamCatcher v3.5 for what will end up being my dedicated folder / bling machine!
On the down side, for domestic tranquility I’ve had to retire the box that was to have gotten a 8800GT / GTX for folding here. Now I’m looking at how to get something “snuck in” in the near future.
_________________
As of 02/01/11
DreamCatcher AM3 >> (Down Again) >> SG01 Evo, MSI 785GM-E65, PII X4 955(AQ H2O Cooled), XFX GTX285(EK H2O Cooled), Seagate 7200.10 ST380815AS 80GB, 2 x G.S. F3-12800CL7D-2GBPI, MODU82+ EMD525AWT, XP Home SP2
KestrelFlight >> (Under Construction) >> Zalman Z7+, MSI NF980-G65, PII X4 1055T, 2 x Galaxy 580GTXs, Zalman 32GB SSD, WD V'Raptor 300GB, 2 x WD 1 TB Blacks, G.S. F3-16000CL9D-4GBTD, Zalman ZM1000-HP Plus , Win7
Oz1a v2.0 >> XFX MDA72P7509 750a, PI X2 8870BE, 2 x XFX GTS250, WD 250GB, F2-8500CL5D-2GBPK, Tt TR2 600W, XP Pro SP3 |
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Little Bruin
Boo Boo
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