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Dud3!
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PostPosted: Sun, 23 May 2004 15:25:37    Post Subject: Reply with quote View Single Post

Laughing That really bugs you doesn't it? Grin

I don't use DC so it doesn't bug me, that's what FTP, SSH, and HTTP is for. Razz

Don't worry, I'll DC your arse soon enough. Laughing

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Little Bruin
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BeerCheeze
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PostPosted: Sun, 23 May 2004 15:45:10    Post Subject: Reply with quote View Single Post

thePMG wrote:
Dr. EvilCheeze wrote:
I don't want links... want you to explain, in your own words. Explain HOW you would do it, and what the differences are...


I've never implemented NIS, I don't have enough systems and the redundancy I would need. If I needed to implement it, I would read the HOWTO and MAN pages, and do it. I read the HOWTOs for DNS, NFS, apache/ssl/php/mysql, cups, samba, DHCP, distCC, and was able to implement these with little trouble. My favorite was using PXEBOOT, to boot a diskless computer, all of it's files were on my server being shared via NFS.
In short, if I needed NIS, I could do it, with minimal fuss.


OK, so you admit... you have no real world experince... only in home usage. OK... so then how do you suppose that makes you capable of properly evaluating all those systems??

Also, no one has answered any of my questions about the different OS's?? What are the differences? What are the strengths, weakness? What makes any/one better than the others??

Hell... I'll even give you a scenario. (Too which there isn't a right answer)

You are responsible for setting up a new company with 2 offices. They need e-mail, a wep page for information only (no selling, etc), printing, internet access. They do a lot of spreadsheets, presentations, and memo's, documents, etc... They have several people that go back and forth between the two offices and they need access to all their stuff.

Now, taking the network out (i.e. routers, switches, frame-relay, etc..) How would you set that up, and WHY?


(OOO BTW... Novell did diskless workstations YEARS ago (like the 80's)... matter of fact.. they are the first ones to do it in the PC arcatect...)
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Dud3!
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PostPosted: Sun, 23 May 2004 16:36:01    Post Subject: Reply with quote View Single Post

Well, if you're going to do that, I have one of the possible answers for that question:

Having maintained a few companies in my area for three years, I can tell you what happens when you choose windows for an office environment, lots of stuff that costs money.

I wish I had kept track of all the money that was spent maintaining the computers at the offices due to windows crap in general, spyware, viruses, and endless crap. I patched the systems together, installed AVG (replacing the newest NAV that wouldn't even find the viruses they had), spybot, etc, cleaned all the computers, updated them, did countless things to every system in the offices, just to get them to run for a day at a time.

One of the offices finally let me build new computers and replace one laptop and add another laptop. The computers I built have Windows 2000 installed, and the laptops run XP Home. This fixed a lot of Win98 related problems, but if it wasn't for me maintaining them, they would be a mess soon enough. In fact, one of the owners of one business filled his system with spyware, IE hijackers, etc that I had to remove with Spybot, Ad-Aware, and manually since no program could remove one of the IE hijackers (the program written to do so didn't remove the newest version of that hijacker).

If let go, all the systems would be brought down in a short time due to windows needing a LOT of maintenance in an environment that has web access, uses Internet Explorer, and receives hundreds of e-mails daily.

Here's the routine maintenance for the windows systems:

Scandisk for the systems still running 98
Spybot
Ad-Aware
A2 worm remover
AVG full scan
Disk cleanup to remove temp files (can be done on startup, but doesn't always work)
Diskeeper (defragmentation)
Windows update
AVG update
Spybot update
Ad-Aware update
A2 update
and a few minor things.


Now, let's step over to the Linux side.

If this business ran Linux, here's what they'd have:

No virus/spyware/ad-ware/hijacker worries whatsoever. No need for anti-virus and spyware/worm removers. No money and time spent updating those programs, no money and time spent calling me to remove stuff that the programs can't.

No worries about e-mail attachments, not having to be interrupted because AVG popped up with a virus notice when checking e-mail.

No worries about maintenance, at all. That's right. Look at the Windows maintenance above. Now look at the maintenance required for a desktop Linux system:








That's right, that's the maintenance I do for my systems. I use it every day for a LOT of different stuff and I do nothing for maintenance. Not even cleaning /tmp.

Then let's toss in the fact that they can laugh about any worm threats on the news, because oh hey! That doesn't matter, I'm running Linux, a worm won't bring my system down.

Then we can add the fact that they can run Linux 24/7 without having to restart due to memory leakage, bugginess, etc. The fact that it's more stable and secure, on and on.

Now let's cover your requirements BC:

Web page: for a small business, a hosting company such as Prohosters (running FreeBSD) would be a better idea than running their own web server. If they wanted to host their own, a server running Linux and Apache is easy enough to setup, and better than the Windows solution (you use that combo yourself).

Internet access is not a problem of course, neither is email and printing. I set up my printer computer as an internet gateway, DHCP server, and local and remote DNS and it worked fine. Now I am back to using the main computer running windows for the internet connection (because I'm moving and taking the printer computer with me) and am having trouble with some stuff.

Spreadsheets, presentations, memos and documents are all handled by Open Office, which can save files in MS formats if needed by other people outside the office.

Access to all their stuff: I assume you mean over the network, or do you mean from anywhere over the internet? Either way is not a problem because each user can access their files via SSH or SFTP, or a webserver can be set up and their files can be kept in the public_html directory with a password prompt when accessed over the internet with a browser.


You end with a "WHY?". WHY because of the points I've already made.

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thePMG
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PostPosted: Sun, 23 May 2004 16:36:11    Post Subject: Reply with quote View Single Post

Dr. EvilCheeze wrote:

OK, so you admit... you have no real world experince... only in home usage. OK... so then how do you suppose that makes you capable of properly evaluating all those systems??


I never said that I did, you made an assumption. You gave out the hypothetical situation, I answered with what I knew, and you seem very intent on proving me wrong, and I really don't know why.

Dr. EvilCheeze wrote:
Also, no one has answered any of my questions about the different OS's?? What are the differences? What are the strengths, weakness? What makes any/one better than the others??


Read a few posts up, I asked you to elaborate on what you wanted with that question. Did you miss that?

Dr. EvilCheeze wrote:
Hell... I'll even give you a scenario. (Too which there isn't a right answer)

You are responsible for setting up a new company with 2 offices. They need e-mail, a wep page for information only (no selling, etc), printing, internet access. They do a lot of spreadsheets, presentations, and memo's, documents, etc... They have several people that go back and forth between the two offices and they need access to all their stuff.

Now, taking the network out (i.e. routers, switches, frame-relay, etc..) How would you set that up, and WHY?


What is the point of this anymore, do you want me to say Windows wins? You seem very intent to try to discredit me, and I've never done anything to you, except say what my opinions on Linux are.
Sorry that it got under your skin so much.


Dr. EvilCheeze wrote:
(OOO BTW... Novell did diskless workstations YEARS ago (like the 80's)... matter of fact.. they are the first ones to do it in the PC arcatect...)


Thats cool. Me doing the diskless workstation thing was a learning experience, having all the small pieces needed fall together to make the end product work. It was just a learning experience.

How about this, I Like Linux, you like Windows, and we leave it at that.

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Last edited by thePMG on Sun, 23 May 2004 17:31:15; edited 1 time in total
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Spire
Hall Pass B!tch!!!


Joined: 01 Aug 2003
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PostPosted: Sun, 23 May 2004 17:30:21    Post Subject: Reply with quote View Single Post

SWEEET!!!

A little excitement on BB!!!

Are you going to take that EC??? Hey PMG, don't let him talk to you like that!!!

(Just trying to stir the pot a little, hehehe)

My BASIC Timex Sinclair 1000 had all ya all beat, all the commands were typed on the little calculator keys.
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BeerCheeze
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PostPosted: Sun, 23 May 2004 17:35:22    Post Subject: Reply with quote View Single Post

Dud3! wrote:
If this business ran Linux, here's what they'd have:

No virus/spyware/ad-ware/hijacker worries whatsoever. No need for anti-virus and spyware/worm removers.



HAHAHAHA!! You lose my friend...

http://securityresponse.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/linux.simile.html
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thePMG
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PostPosted: Sun, 23 May 2004 17:37:48    Post Subject: Reply with quote View Single Post

Spire wrote:
SWEEET!!!

A little excitement on BB!!!

Are you going to take that EC??? Hey PMG, don't let him talk to you like that!!!

(Just trying to stir the pot a little, hehehe)


Nah, I'm done.

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Little Bruin
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Dud3!
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PostPosted: Sun, 23 May 2004 17:40:21    Post Subject: Reply with quote View Single Post

I lose? I wasn't aware that this was a game...

I know there are a FEW viruses out there for Linux, but find out how many. I'd bet it's less than ten. Find out how many of those can do anything to the system as root. A properly set up user account can't write to anything other than /tmp and the files in it's own directory, so a virus wouldn't bring the system down as I stated.

If there is a virus/worm that can mess up the system and bring it totally down, I don't know about it.

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PostPosted: Sun, 23 May 2004 17:45:36    Post Subject: Reply with quote View Single Post

thePMG wrote:
How about this, I Like Linux, you like Windows, and we leave it at that.


And that is your problem... I don't "like Windows". It is a capable OS, the most popular, and is for the most part an Easy to use Desktop system.

I don't have a problem with Linux... It's a capable OS, gaining in popularity, and is a slightly more difficulty Server system.

And I have not missed your questions... I am simply asking for you to explain things. It seems as though you can not. Because you have lack of experience. Which is fine. But you simply won't admit that.... god for bid.... you might not have all the facts and are being over zealous about your decisions. Those who have an open mind, and learn balance, are going to be much more successful.

You see... Windows, Linux, Novell, none of them "win". They each have their uses, they each have their pluses, their minuses, etc... And what you seem hell bent on is not giving Windows the rewards it deserves. All I have been asking is... "Why? And what facts do you have to make your decisions on? Other than... MS = Devil, Linux = God"


OPEN YOUR MIND...... Don't try to use a Hammer to put flip an egg... use a spatula! Bang Head
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PostPosted: Sun, 23 May 2004 18:06:56    Post Subject: Reply with quote View Single Post

Dud3! wrote:
I lose? I wasn't aware that this was a game...

I know there are a FEW viruses out there for Linux, but find out how many. I'd bet it's less than ten. Find out how many of those can do anything to the system as root. A properly set up user account can't write to anything other than /tmp and the files in it's own directory, so a virus wouldn't bring the system down as I stated.

If there is a virus/worm that can mess up the system and bring it totally down, I don't know about it.


That one dates back to 2002... how many more are out there? I bet more than 10. And you can use the same argument for XP/2000. If the account doesn't have Admin access, a virus/worm can't do much damage to the system.

I also can't tell you how many times I've had to apply patches to my Linux server for.... OOOPS Bugs that allow an "attacker" to gain root access. As Linux get's bigger and bigger (and it will, and should) It will get more and more attacks/viruses/worms designed for it.


Also... your secinaro for using Linux as a desktop OS on at the business... ooooo bad bad bad... I know I was talking with someone who is a real IT person, who is also a Linux Nut (self admited) who switched to... Mac OS V becasue he had nothing but problems with opening doc's/presantions with... OO Yea... Open Office... Bang Head


Quote:
Linux on the Desktop: The Whole Story

Linux on the Server vs. on the Desktop

Linux has had significant success on the server. Many servers are dedicated to running a single application; in many cases, it has been relatively easy for enterprises to replace specific servers, such as a Web server or network infrastructure server. Linux brings down the cost of the overall hardware acquisition, a proposition that, during times of economic woes, has become extremely attractive to IT managers seeking cost-saving solutions. Moreover, hardware vendors such as IBM and Hewlett-Packard have aggressively stood behind Linux, giving users the confidence that any technical support or maintenance issues will be addressed.

However, the environment for Linux on the desktop is significantly different. Knowledge workers use PCs to run diverse combinations of applications. For these users, migration costs will be very high, because all Windows applications must be replaced or rewritten.

As a result, migrating desktops to Linux only makes sense in a very narrow, limited range of situations. The Linux migration should be considered only if there are relatively few applications, and these applications are fixed-function or low-function, such as data entry, call center or bank teller/platform automation. In these cases, the cost of migration may be low enough to justify the move to Linux.

PC vendors have been less enthusiastic in rallying behind Linux on the desktop, preferring to leave it to customer choice for custom builds and supporting Linux on an ad hoc basis. PC vendors have also used Linux in sporadic sales campaigns to meet specific price targets. Overall, however, Linux support on the PC is the exception and not the rule, a challenge that an enterprise must consider when determining the future of its desktop OS.
- Gartner


As for a good article on this... http://www.theregister.co.uk/2003/10/06/linux_vs_windows_viruses/

It's pretty fair, and I think it gives the blame where it truly belongs. (And yea... MS loses the virus battle... Duh)
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