Do you think

BeerCheeze · Posted: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 14:24:08 Post Subject:

And... How about a brief look at Saddam:

The current leader of Iraq is was born on April 28, 1937, in a small village of al-Auja near the town of Takrit. His early child hood was spent in a mud hut in a mostly Sunni Muslim part of Iraq, which is approximately (100) one-hundred miles north of Baghdad. Hussein's father, Hussein al-Majid, died or abandoned the family (according to who is reporting the story), within a short time of his birth. Accurate records are difficult to obtain in a country where Hussein's birthday is celebrated as a national holiday.

He was reared alone by his mother Subha, until she took a second husband, Ibrahim Hassan. Hassan, often said to have been brutal and a thief, was a sheepherder by profession and enlisted Saddam in his ventures. According to a former personal secretary of Hussein, his step father abused Saddam and sent him to steal chicken and sheep to be sold. This pattern continued until 1947 when, at the age of ten, he was allowed to move in with his mother's brother, Khayrallah Tulfah, in Baghdad.

In Baghdad, Hussein began to learn more than reading and writing. His tutor, Khayrallah had been "cashiered" from the Iraqi army for supporting a "Pro-Nazi" coup attempt that failed. Khayrallah's bitterness towards the British and imperialism, soon was transferred to Saddam. In fact, some confidants of Hussein point to his relationship with Tulfah as a turning point in his political awareness. To demonstrate Tulfah's importance to Hussein, he was later made Mayor of Baghdad under the Hussein regime. Saddam finished intermediate school (roughly the equivalent of 9th Grade) at the age of sixteen, and attempted to be admitted to the prestigious Baghdad Military Academy.

Unfortunately, his poor grades prevented him from doing so, and he became more deeply involved in political matters. In 1956, he participated in a non-successful coup attempt against the monarchy of King Faisal II. In 1957, he joined the Baath party, a radical nationalist movement. In 1958, a non-Baathist group of army officers succeeded in overthrowing the King. The group was led by General Abdul Qassim. In 1959, Saddam and a group of Baathist supporters attempted to assassinate Gen. Qassim by a day-light machine-gun attack. The attack was unsuccessful, but it helped to place Hussein in a leadership position in the Baathist movement and furthered the process of nationalist political indoctrination. After the attack, in which Hussein is slightly wounded, he fled to Syria. From Syria, he went to Cairo, Egypt where he would spend the next four (4) years.

While receiving aid from Egypt, he finished high school at the age of twenty-four and continued his political education. While in Egypt, he was arrested on at least two occasions for threatening a fellow student and chasing another down the street with a knife, both for political differences. In 1961, he entered Cairo University School of Law, but did not finish his studies there. In 1963, a group of Baathist army officers tortured and assassinated General Qassim. This was done on Iraqi television. They also mutilated many of Qassim's devotees and showed their bodies (in close up) on the nightly news for more than one night. Saddam, hearing the news, quickly rushed back to Iraq to become involved in the revolution. And involved, he was, as both an interrogator and torturer at the infamous "Palace of the End", in the basement of the former palace of King Faisal.

According to reports by Hanna Batatu (a government reporter), Hussein rose quickly through the ranks, due to his extreme efficiency as a torturer. The Baathist party split in 1963 and Saddam had supported the "winner" in the latest party struggle. He was appointed by Michel Aflaq to be a member of the Baath Regional Command. In 1964, Hussein was jailed by some "rightist" military officers who opposed the Baathist takeover. Through other political influence provided by his older cousin, General Ahmad Hassan al-Bakr, Hussein became deputy Secretary-General of the Baathists in 1966.

In 1966, Hussein escaped from prison and set up a Baathist internal party security system known as the Jihaz Haneen. It was to serve as the continuation of his political and real rise to power in Iraq. In 1968, another major upheaval in Iraq gave Hussein the greatest opportunity for further advancement; his mentor, Gen. Bakr and the Baathist seized the government. Hussein was made Deputy Chairman of the Revolutionary Command Council, in charge of internal security.

At the age of thirty-one (31) he had acquired what could have been deemed the number two spot in the Baathist party. He would continue in the position for approximately the next ten years. During that time, he would continue to consolidate his power by appointing numerous family members to positions of authority in the Iraqi government. In his position of Deputy in Charge of Internal Security, he built an enormous security apparatus and had spies and informers everywhere in the circles of power in Iraq.

During this time, Hussein also began to accumulate the wealth and position that he so relished as a poor sheep-herder in the desert of al-Auja. He and his family, now firmly entrenched in the infrastructure of the country , began to control the country's oil and other industrial enterprises. With the help of his security network and several personal assassins, Hussein took control of many of the nation's leading businesses.

In 1978, Saddam had been working with othe r Arab nations to ostracize Egypt for it's diplomatic initiative in resolving Israel/Arab questions. An ally, President Hafez al-Assad of Syria, almost became the undoing of Hussein's ascension. If a Syrian/Iraqi federation were formed against Egypt, Assad, not Hussein, would rise to a position of greater power in the relationship. President Bakr would lead the federation with Assad as second in command. Hussein could not allow that to happen and began to urge the President to step down. Again with the help of his family and security apparatus, Hussein was able to accomplish his task.

On July 16, 1979, President Bakr resigned, officially due to health problems, but in reality a victim of Hussein's political in-fighting. Moving quickly to consolidate his power, he called a major Baathist meeting on July 22, 1979. During the meeting, various family members and other Hussein devotees urged that the party be "cleansed". Hussein then read a list of names and asked that they step outside. Once there, they are taken into custody.

A high-ranking member of the Revolutionary Command, the head of the labor unions, the leading Shiite member of the Command, and twenty (20) others are then systematically and personally killed by Hussein and his top party officials. During the next few days, reports indicate that as many as 450 other military officers, deputy prime ministers, and "non-party faithful" were rounded up and killed. This purge insured Hussein's consolidation of power in Iraq.

In 1980, Iraq invaded Iran and conducted an eight year war against one of his nearest neighbors and the home of Shiite fundamentalist Muslims. Again, because it appeared that the Shiites could be a threat to his continued dictatorship, the Kurds (Iraqi minority) were sprayed with poison gas for participating with the Iranians in an attempted overthrow of his country. The war continued for eight years of brutality and even repression of Hussein's own countrymen (especially the Kurds).

In 1988, after millions being killed, Iraq and Iran conduct a cease-fire and ended the bloodshed. By 1984, as many as 1.5 million Iraqis were supporters of Hussein and the Baathists. He continued to enlarge his security apparatus and army. In insidious ways, the party apparatus formed numerous government agencies to control and manipulate the citizens of Iraq. A statistical analysis of the population indicated that as many as fifty per cent of the Iraqis or a member of their family were employed by the government or military. The party and the people have become one. Hussein's domination of the country is complete.

Puddin · Posted: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 18:14:40 Post Subject:

yup my perfect world. All i am saying is that for a President that makes Tax Cuts, then Decides to spend more money.... Man thats a really smart friggan move.. Commen sense would dicate thats 1 thing you would not do.

Sadam was a son of a b!%@#, if his Daddy had finished what he started we wouldn;t be here, so then after 9-11 he coulld finish what his Daddy started.

I just Don't liek Bush's " I do what i want and i don;t care abotu Congress or what the world thinks" mentality. Cause after he stepped on everyone's toes about IRAQ he then goes back to the UN and Says... I need your help, afetr i Told you you can eat my a$$.

He called for the Passing of the Patriot Act, which most argued broke many Constitutional admednments EVEN the REpublicans said that, then when people voted against it he called them " Unpatriotic" and "Un American" Thats some *s#!7. Bush is a Mini Dictator, He loves power, He loves it, he lives for it, and now he has 4 more yreas of it, with no worry abotu re-election.... I winder what he will do now, especiall with all the crap he pulled when he knew he had to be re-elected.

Hes not the worst president we have ever had, hes nto the best, and i am not saying John Kerry would be better, but neither of em belong in office

T-shirt · Posted: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 20:24:20 Post Subject:

Common sense is not his strong suite.
His daddy had the sense to listen to his advisors, "destroy Saddam/iraq and you leave an unstable void in the power structure of the region"
"Constitution, sumonstution, We can change that" ("what do a bunch of guys 230 year ago know anyway")

vulcan · Posted: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 06:12:54 Post Subject: Re: Do you think

dadx2mj · Posted: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 11:15:36 Post Subject: Re: Do you think

Enforcer · Posted: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 16:29:03 Post Subject:

I like to think I ride the middle ground on these topics, I was for the war in Iraq....provided we had the UN behind us. I look at how our economy has gone down, which I won't blame solely on Bush, because it did start at the end of Clinton's term. What I can't understand is the hard-nosed attitude of Bush and how in his eyes we as a nation don't need the help of anyone else, and when they want to discuss it he just goes right ahead. We weren't the most loved country before him, now 4 years in to him though we are more hated than ever. A Co-worker of mine has a friend who was at the Tour De France this year, and was appalled at the attitude and general feeling of the populace towards himself and others for being American. That same co-worker (who is left wing to be sure) had made a comment that was unsettling to me, yet I cannot dismiss.

He said we are the Soviet Union of the new millenium.

I'm too young to really grasp the politics of the time when the Soviet Union was in full force, but I do see his point. I know that what is needed now is to heal the wounds Bush and the rest of our government have opened between countries that beforehand just silently put up with us but now hate us with a vengence. We need to draw ourselves back home, to try to steer away from a country of services and get back to producing things again. The world mostly hates us as a country, and we rely on them for cheap labor for our goods. This cannot last. I do agree that action has to be taken for some things, that we cannot role over and just let the world have their way with us, but at the same time a lot more effort has to go into keeping good relations with the countrys that haven't openly gone hostile with us...yet.

I love my country, and I love the liberties and freedom that I have. I love that I can make posts like above with no fear of the FBI knocking on my door. I wouldn't trade this country for anything in the world, but man, stuff's gotta change soon.

dadx2mj · Posted: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 16:48:00 Post Subject:

Enforcer I see you points and dont think that they are totally with out merit. However I do disagree to some extent. I dont like the idea of not having any allies but I dont see us in that situation at this point. We do have our allies. For so many years I cant count we have worried too much about what other countries might think of us. We have dumped billions of $$$ into other countries only to have them turn around and stab us in the back. To my way of thinking it is high time we say screw them and what they think we are going to do what is right for US. If they want to be part of it fine and good if not then screw them let them fend for themselves. Lord knows we could use the $$$ right here in the good old U.S.

trekrider · Posted: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 17:54:33 Post Subject:

As soon as I read Enforcers post, I thought, "Soviet Union?", B.S.! The E.U. LIVED with the threat of the Soviet Union. (except france, who was buffered by Germany) In fact, some of the E.U. countrys were part of the Soviet Union. They KNOW what that was like!

They don't like the fact that we changed the "status que" We upset their apple cart!

We have & continue to add to their coffers every year.

When was the last time a disaster happened over there when we didn't send help? How many times have they helped us?

With the overthrow of Iraq, some of these countrys have lost some BIG $$$$$$. (we now find against UN policies)

AMERICA WAS ATTACKED! HOW DARE THEY COMPLAIN BECAUSE WE ARE PRO-ACTIVE IN OUR DEFENCE! Do you really belive they wouldn't do much the same?

I applaude the President for being a "COWBOY" and taking the fight to them.

To hell with the rest of the world that disagrees because we didn't take their best intrest in mind! (but din't worry, America will still be there to help you when you need it)

NewAwakenings · Posted: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 20:45:57 Post Subject:

TO answer you Trek.. Why did we go to war in the first place?? You know Bush lied about why we actually went to war!!! But that is besides the point here, my point was that both republicans and decomcrats have their faults, and if they would just accept and WORK together, I guarantee we could fill this gap that is in our country right now. Bush could take a few pointers from Kerry, and Kerry from Bush!!!!
And as far as Kerry not disclosing all his military records... well at least he actually served!!!! Wave

P.S. I still wuv you trek!!!!

dadx2mj · Posted: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 21:20:47 Post Subject: